We've got good news - you don't have to top fighting in marriage! Actually, fighting together will draw you together when you learn to do it the right way.
In today's podcast, we're going to take a look at the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (coined by Dr. John Gottman) - four things that will destroy your relationship. But we're also going to share four keys to keep these evil destroyers far away.
We're going to dive into some serious research-based information that will shine a light on conflict in marriage and ways to help you turn conflict and quarrels into passion and purpose.
So today we're gonna be talking about how to fight the right way and specifically, um, we're gonna dive into some research backed stuff that we've learned about the four horsemen that happened in conflict. Yep. We'll explain what that means, and then how to counteract the four horsemen. So good. . I'm really excited about this one.
This one has been really helpful for us. Yes. And the four horsemen, uh, Dr. John Gottman, you guys hear us quote him all the time. Him and his wife research, uh, scientists that focus on marriage, they, they talk about the four horsemen of the apocalypse. We all know that in scripture. You know that by the time the four horsemen show up in Revelation, it's over.
Right? So they're talking about marriage has four horsemen as well, and relationships do. And we're gonna talk about what those four things. We're gonna talk about how to counteract those and how to fight properly so you're in for a real treat. Yes. And, um, this is gonna be a good one. Before we do, let's, let's show 'em a song that we came across, I don't know how long ago this was.
Maybe a couple years, but it is so good. Yeah. By her. Her name is Jax. , and I think she might be like a u like she came out on YouTube. Like I don't, I don't know when she became famous, but she just kinda like did stuff in her room and I'm not, I'm not certain that she's maybe TikTok or something like that.
Like she's, she's a influencer now, but I think she's got some pretty raunchy stuff. Yeah. But I heard this one song is so, yes, we heard this song and we're like, we couldn't stop listening to it. It's, it's a tribute to her parents', relat. . Mm-hmm. . So I told to, let's play the first verse into the chorus, just because it, it just rolls so perfectly.
So, yeah. We're gonna play a little, a longer clip on this. Yep. It's called Like My Father by Jack's.
Come home to roses and dirty little notes on posts, and when my hair starts turning, line
starts with friend. A kiss on the forehead, a date night, apology after a fight. I need a man who and gets outta the slow
with someone who makes me feel young man loves me.
Yeah, that last part, like, I wanna love this. So this dog, I want a man who loves me. Like my father loves my mom. Yeah. I mean, that is, Baller status. There's this great video. And the first time I ever heard it, uh, I saw the video and she's singing it to her parents. Mm-hmm. . And her mom is like, bawling, bawling,
Yep. That's, so then I googled this girl, I'm like, ma'am, what, what's her are or on, on uh, apple Music? And I'm like, what are some of her music? Like I love her voice and she's got some bad stuff, but I didn't know that she got this one. It's such a sweet song, but you know, so inspiring. We all hear that phrase that the best thing that you can do for your kids.
Cuz I would say 90% of the people that listen to this podcast have kids or want to have kids. , um, the best thing that you can do for your kids is to, is to love their mom or their dad. Right. And it's so true because marriage is how you're teaching your kids how to love another human being. Right. Even when that human being's not being lovable mm-hmm.
and there's nothing better that you can teach your kids. Yeah. There's nothing better that you can do in terms of discipleship is to teach other people how to love people. Yes. Yeah. Right? So we hear it all the time. Things are better caught than taught, and it's just true. It's so true. Wow. Our kids are picking up on everything and.
They care. They care about the way that we treat each other. Like our two of our youngest, um, our two youngest are very sensitive Yeah. To relationships. And they often will be like, wait, what's go? They, they pick up on every little relational cue. Yeah. When it comes to Jason Ni, they're like, wait, what's going on?
Are you, are you mad at dad? Or, you know mm-hmm. . And, um, it, it opens up a lot of conversations for us with them, but it's just so important that. We love our spouse well because we have people watching, people watching us that care and yeah, are taking every bit of it in. And you know that that is like the perfect segue into what we're talking about.
We're talking about how to fight the right way. today because your kids are gonna see you go back and forth with your spouse. You can call it fighting, you can call it arguing, you can call it whatever you wanna call it. But when you guys, you know, do butt heads, your kids are gonna see that. Right? And, and if they don't see it, they're gonna feel it.
Mm-hmm. , because we, we exhibit that energy, so, or we exude that energy. So we need to learn to fight the right way. Yep. And so what Tori and I wanna do is I've got this book. Um, it's called Helping Couples and it's a, it's a book specific to people in our position where we coach couples and mentor couples and, and it gives them just research backed, uh, information that will help them as they coach and mentor couples.
And as I'm reading through this, um, they got to the four horsemen of conflict, which is Dr. John Gottman's thing. And I had heard about this, you know, years ago. and they were talking about how to overcome the four horsemen specifically with, with four different keys. And this is doctors, uh, less, and Leslie Parrot and Dr.
David Olson, they created two different marriage assessments. One is the Simba assessment and one is the prepared and rich assessment. And literally more than a million couples have gone through these assessments. Mm-hmm. . So when they tell you something about marriage, you know that it's pretty dead gum accurate.
Right. And, I was reading this and I thought, man, I need to, I need to share this on our podcast cuz a bunch of this stuff is so good and they're talking about fighting properly. Yeah. That, that will lead us into the four horsemen. So they say a good fight stays clean while a bad fight gets dirty. Hmm. But specifically, what's a dirty fight look like?
Well, that's where you get into the Four Horsemen, but before we get there, listen to some of these stats Tour. 93% of couples who fight dirty will be divorced in 10 years. Wow. Ohio State University did a research study that show. , unhealthy marriage, marriage arguments contribute significantly, significantly to higher risk of heart attacks.
Mm-hmm. , headaches, back pain, and a whole slew of other physical problems. Wow. That when you're not fighting the right way in your relationship. And then they go on to say that researchers can now predict with more than 90% accuracy whether a couple will stay together, whether or not, based on solely how they.
So it's not whether or not you fight, it's how you fight. So we need to really look at how to fight. Yeah. And, and, and when it comes to marriage, the research done in marriage, more research has been done on conflict management than any other topic in marriage. Hmm. So there's a lot to talk about here. So this is where Dr.
John Gottman gets in and he talks about the four horsemen. So let me give you these four horsemen. Are you ready? I'm ready. The four horsemen, and they say that he can predict within 90%. That marriages that will fail if they exhibit these four things in their mar marriage, criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling.
Hmm. I'm gonna, we're gonna look at each one of these, okay? But criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. And these are the four horsemen. Okay? So criticism say every, every fight that goes the wrong way, every bad fight or dirty fight, as they call it, starts with criticism. It's a critical. like this is, criticism is different than a complaint.
Tory and I talk about this in our marriage, seminars, criticism, attacks the person and labels a person, a complaint, attacks a situation and is about behavior that can be improved. Hmm. So if, um, let's just say, I'm gonna use this example over and over. Let's just say Tori's making dinner and I'm at the office and I need, uh, she wants me to come home for dinner, obviously, and I'm gonna come home, but I'm late for dinner.
A, a complaint can say, okay, so you're late for dinner. The kids and I were here, the dinner was cold. You know, I would really rather you be here. Like it's talking about a behavior. Do you think maybe you can cut that meeting off a little bit earlier? Mm-hmm. . So it's talking about a behavior criticism moves into attacking beha uh, attacking identity, right?
It's not just about behavior and it says, Hey, you're late. You know what? You're always late. Mm-hmm. . Well, you don't even care about me and the kids. Mm-hmm. , you know, like it's attacking the identity. This is who you are. Yeah. Yeah. This is who you are. You're always late. You don't care. You know, you're kind of putting you statements.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and it's attributing all blame to your spouse. Right. And it's telling them who they are and, and that's a bad place to be. Unchecked. Criticism in the heart. if you're thinking these things, but maybe not even verbalizing them, it leads to the second, which is awful contempt. Mm-hmm.
Contempt takes it a step further, contempt is unchecked criticism in the heart, but it leads to belittling and placing yourself above your spouse. Wow. So contempt brings in the element of comparison. Right? So it would say this, Tori could say something like this to me if I'm home late. Um, why are you late for dinner?
You're always. , I'm never late. Right. If I were to make dinner mm-hmm. , I wouldn't be late. Mm-hmm. , you know, or, or excuse me, if you were to make dinner, I wouldn't be late. Right? Yeah. And so now that's a contemptuous thought cuz you're placing yourself above your spouse. Yeah. And contempt. is, um, a cousin to pride
Yeah, that's, that's exactly right. Um, I was reading and listening to Dr. Gottman. He was saying how, um, contempt is actually the greatest predictor of divorce. Mm. Out of all. Um, but it's also, um, predicts illness and those who have contempt will be sick within 30 years according to their research. It's so true.
Because that it introduces stress. Yes. Yeah. They said that those who are dealing with contempt, they have a great surge of cortisol in their body, which is cortisol, which is the stress cor. Yep. Cortisol. The stress hormone, which is so interesting. And you know, we talked about how you, neuroscience shows that our body.
Operates best when we're operating out of love. But when we're operating out of fear, that's when that's where disease comes in dis-ease, because it's just kind of chaos when they, when they actually see people under fear, um, or under things that come from fear. , which a lot of times contempt can come from cuz it's a controlling mechanism.
Yeah. Um, they see that your body starts to break down. That you, you're, you're, you're just, you're not thriving when you're operating like that. All these hormones that are detrimental to your, to your health begin to be released and it's just very, very interesting. . Yeah. And that's, it is a little bit crazy because when you think about this and you think, you know, when we're talking about the first two horsemen, criticism and contempt mm-hmm.
these are both things that happen inside you mm-hmm. , um, it's not that happens to you, but it's happening inside you. And you might think, well, you know, I don't, I don't criticize my spouse. I, I don't, I'm not contemptuous toward them. I don't belittle them. Mm-hmm. . But what you have to pay attention to is any subconscious thoughts.
Right. Of, I'm, I'm pulling way more weight in this family than he. You know that, and if you think that long enough. Mm. and, and it's going to mm-hmm. lead to contempt where you're thinking that you're actually better than your spouse. Right. Although you'll never verbalize verbalize it. Yeah. You never say it.
Right. But you're feeling it subconsciously. Yes. Your spouse can feel that. Absolutely. And that will lead you to the next two wholesale. Right. Go ahead. No, oftentimes with contempt, you're right, you're not even using words, but the energy that you, your body language and your facial expressions are releasing.
Yeah. Is, I loathe you, I'm disgusted by. . Right. You know, there you can't not feel that. Yeah. And so a lot of times couples be like, well I didn't, you didn't even say anything. You didn't have to say anything. Yeah. When you are in a con, contemptuous spirit, everybody knows it. Yeah. Um, and I think it's also interesting to to know what are some of the origins of contempt.
That's good. There's five different origins to five of the top origins of contempt. when they, when you felt it as a child and it was modeled to you. Oh, yeah. And it just becomes kind of a habitual response, like, like a parent or a teacher or a coach that you knew didn't like you. Mm-hmm. , like, kind of had that feeling when you Yeah.
When you've sensed a lot of disapproval as a child. Yeah. It can come off as contempt and, and in your adult life and then cause you to be contemptuous. Right. Oh, that's stinks. Mm-hmm. , um, when someone feels. Inferior. When you feel a lot of shame, you may give off contempt because you're trying to cope with your own shame.
Yeah. That you need to push it off onto somebody else. You gotta give it away to somebody else. The burden is too heavy for you to hold. So you're trying to find, find another place for it. Yeah. And that's, that's interesting because um, in the scripture it says knowledge puff puffs up. Mm-hmm. like, cuz God knows, you know that when you get really smart.
Yeah. That if you portray yourself as really. Then you're gonna make other people feel as though they're not as good as you. Right. Which can put them into their way of their weakness. Mm. And cause them to feel contemptuous towards you. Right. Yeah, exactly. It's still their thoughts, like they, they, you, they've gotta control it, but Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah. The third one is people hurting, so they hurt back. Yeah. Hurting people. Hurt people. Yeah. And then four is just ha habitual. Yeah. It's just a bad habit that you picked up somewhere and you just keep on doing it because, did you say it was five keys or? Five Origins. Oh five. Five. Five of the top origins of contempt.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And, um, you know, we talk about in, in neuroscience how thoughts, the thoughts that you think create pathways in your, in your brain, right? Yeah. And so if you think a thought once it becomes an easier thought to think again, just like a pathway, right? When you break it down, it becomes a path of least resistance.
And you go back to it. So if you're in, in, if you're on a path that is taking you away from your spouse or getting in the way of your relationship with your. , then you need to start rethinking things. Yes. You know, you need to start new pathways, and if you're in, in a habit of doing something and thinking a a certain way towards your spouse, that is detrimental to your relationship.
You need, you need to stop . Yeah. You need to start a new path. You need to, to renew your mind and, and wait until you get alone at some point, and you're gonna be alone for a little bit and ask yourself, what am I thinking about myself? Mm-hmm. , what am I thinking about? Think about what you're thinking about.
Think about it. Mm-hmm. , because you might be thinking negative thoughts and you didn't even realize it. Right. and the Holy Spirit will come in and give illumination to that. Mm-hmm. , did you give all five keys or did you Nope. This, I've got one more. Okay. What's the other one? Um, and the last one is just desperation.
Just desperation to be noticed. Oh, to be heard. So you just get contemptuous? Yes. That's not a good place to be. Okay. So that's criticism and contempt are the first two. Okay. Then those lead to defensiveness and stonewalling. So defensiveness is typically a response to c. So this is when, uh, one spouse is criticizing the other either through word or just through emotion and that they're, they're, they can tell that it's an attack on the identity.
Yep. That they don't appreciate who they are. So they get defensive. Mm-hmm. , that's where they put on that self-protective armor. Yep. And so it may come across as righteous indignation or uh, innocent victimhood or whatever it is. They get defensive. Right. . And so then they start making excuses. Mm-hmm. . And when the defensive partner begins making excuses, it communicates to the other partner that they can't be taken seriously.
Mm-hmm. . So then the one partner who was criticizing is now hearing someone respond in defensiveness, which is causing the person who was criticizing, who actually started the whole thing to think, you're not even hearing me. Yeah. Like, you're not even taking seriously what I'm trying to tell you. Right.
And the person's like essentially subconsciously I, well, I. hear you because you're attacking me, right? Yeah. Put the, take the knife down. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , put the gun away. So that's defensiveness, which is typically a response to criticism. You know what the response is to contempt, which this is the most dangerous of all.
Hmm. Stonewalling. Oh, wow. So that's the fourth horseman. Yep. Stonewalling is when you just completely give up. Yep. They withdraw from the interaction altogether. Mm-hmm. , you know, the, the opposite of love is not. , it's indifference. Yes. Yep. So when, you know, like I've heard it say before, you know if, if your wife or your husband starts to sound, sound like Charlie Brown's teacher Yeah.
You know, it's a bad day. You know, like Charlie Brown's teacher. Wow. Wow. Mm-hmm. like you never knew the words they're saying. You just tune it out. And so, yeah. Um, Stonewall. Gottman says, is the result of feeling psychologically flooded. And this is a term for emo the emotional hijacking of your brain, making productive communication next to impossible.
Wow. So, and, and Tori and I say this, we, we obviously get it from Gottman. , but we talk about how when someone feels flooded mm-hmm. , which, you know, you're flooded when you start to feel hot chested mm-hmm. , you know, when you start to feel like you, you can feel the emotions coming up and you start to feel flooded.
And when you feel flooded, both partners agree to take 20 minutes off. You've gotta take at least 20 minutes. Hmm. Because your body has to, your, your emotions need to come down. It's gonna take at least 20 minutes. Yeah. Sometimes you need to park the situation completely, you know, and talk about it the next day or the next week, or.
but you, you talked through a few things, but then you're gonna park it and you're gonna work on healthy marriage habits. We did a podcast on that. But when psychological flooding takes place, if you're not careful, it will lead to stonewalling because you have to cope. Right? And you just can't cope if you're feeling attacked.
Right? So that's the first, that's the four horsemen right there. Criticism. Defensiveness, stonewalling, if you've got any of these four in your marriage mm-hmm. Gottman says that within 90% accuracy, your your marriage is going to suffer and it's gonna suffer bad. If you've got all four, then he essentially says, you're done, Tori.
And I believe that the power of the Holy Spirit can come in and do anything at any time. Absolutely. With any couple, there's always hope, right? Yep. Yep. So what's the, So now that was Dr. Gottman's Reson. That was Dr. Go Gottman's research with the four Horsemen. Mm-hmm. now, uh, doctors Less and Leslie Parrot, they have their response and they say that they have four.
And theirs is cooperation. Hmm. Ownership, respect, and empathy. Hmm. So how are you going to counteract criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. You're gonna use cooperation ownership. and empathy, it starts with cooperation. Hmm. So all good fights are win-win. Yep. So if to Tory and I can have a fight and we can go at it with each other, like literally we can get it into a heated discussion.
But if we're both thinking win win. Right. We're gonna get past it. Yeah, exactly. Which is, which is something we talk about. in our book, beauty and Battle. Yeah. Is the main point of the whole book is, you know, fighting Together draws you together and we learn this through CrossFit when we began to see that we could actually win if we cooperated.
Yeah. Really it was, it was through that day, that afternoon at CrossFit that we began to see, you know what, when we cooperate together, We can win this thing. Yeah. We can move towards a victory, but we get so defensive and so caught up in the emotions that we just do not pivot to that, to that Cooper, you know, to being cooperative.
Yes. So that's so good. I I love that. That's the first one. Cooperation. It's making that pivot. I'm gonna cooperate because when you and I are our team, yeah. Let's look at each other as a. and let's do this. And it it, A study reported by psychological science discovered that the best arguer in a couple is the one who works in tandem with their partner.
Hmm. So this is cooperation. And they say, the person who says we the most during an argument, typically suggests the best solutions. Okay? They say we users, which they're saying people that use the, the phrase we, we users have a sense of shared interest that sparks compromise and other ideas pleasing to both partners, but you sayers, mm-hmm.
those who just focus on you. You, mm-hmm. on the contrary, tend to criticize, disagree, justify, and otherwise team with negativity. Wow. And so, but remember you go back to the, the physical science that we've, that we've discovered, that type of critical mindset creates dis-ease in your body. Yeah. That leads to disease.
Yeah, exactly. Right. Like stop it. Yeah. You know? So, and they say the key to cooperation is found in re reframe, reframing a conflict from win loses to win-win. Yep. So, so good. And, and, and I like to, , you have to elevate relationship over, right? Yes. You elevate your relationship. Mm-hmm. over being, right?
Mm-hmm. . And typically when you get into an argument, you have to prove that you're right. Yeah. No, you're wrong. What you're saying is wrong. What I'm saying is right. Yeah. But in that moment, drop the whole I'm right thing. Mm-hmm. and say, well, what would be best for my relat. Then I'm not worried about who's right or wrong.
When we get into a good place in our relationship, then maybe we can revisit right, the right, wrong thing. But for right now, in the middle of the argument, it's win-win. Yep. Humility. And then, and then these researchers say that, that, you know, even though we, it's overused, the agree to disagree, they say is, is powerful in a marriage that you agree to disagree.
So you're being agreeable on the fact that you disagree. Yeah. So that's cooperation. The second thing, owner. So they're talking about if you want to fight a good fight, then you have to own your piece of the pie. Yep. And I love this exercise that if you took out a piece of paper, so just think about this, if you're listening to this right now, and think about a fight that, that either you're having with your spouse or you've had in the past with your spouse.
Um, and you could, in the middle of that, you take out a piece of paper, you draw a big circle, and inside that circle you say, here's everything that's involved. Argument Yep. That we're having right now. All of it. Yeah. Okay. Nothing is outside of this circle. Um, draw your piece of the pie. It's so good. . So if that's me, I'm just drawing one tiny little line.
Tori owns 99.9% of it. No, but what they're saying is, is that, . In reality, everybody has a piece of the pie. Exactly. Sometimes it's 50 50, sometimes it's 60 40. Right. You know, sometimes if the person's not healthy. Mm-hmm. , you know, I've Tori and I've always said, you, you, the, your marriage will only go at the speed of the least healthy partner.
Mm-hmm. . So sometimes the fight's 90 10, but you own that 10%. Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. own it. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And so, so good. Um, but then they go and they, they talk about how self-centered pride is at the heart of every bad. So this is where ownership comes in. Research shows that when pride sets in, a partner will continue an argument 34% of the time, even if they know they're wrong or they can't even remember what they were arguing about.
And a full 74% will fight even if they feel it's a losing battle. Wow. Isn't that crazy? Hmm. So that's cooperation and that's ownership. And uh, but they, they talk about this one thing in psych, in social psychology, and I just wanna mention this. You'll, you'll find this interesting tour. , there's a phenomenon called fundamental attribution error.
Hmm. And what it means is that when someone's behaving in a way we don't like, we tend to attribute the behavior to ill will. Yeah. Rather than bad circumstances. Yes. So let's, so true. Let's go back to you. You cooked a dinner. Mm-hmm. , and you're waiting with the kids. And I'm late. Mm-hmm. rather than going.
Well, Jason might've got, must've got a flat tire cuz I know he'd never be late. your, our brains don't naturally do that. Mm-hmm. , they naturally go to, well, he doesn't care. Right. He must've found something better. That he was thinking of something in your past that would, would bring that agreement together.
It's like, yes, I have, I, I know it because of this, this, and this. Uhhuh , I know what he's doing. Yeah. But in, in psychology, it's called fundamental attribution error. Wow. It's what happens with your brain. And so therefore, I, I've heard this from several different research, um, um, researchers in marriage say that one of the best things that you can do is always give your spouse the benefit of.
Yeah. Tori and I we're friends with, um, Emerson and, and Sarah Edgars, who wrote the book, uh, love and Respect. Mm-hmm. , he says that that's one of his key points, right? You have to give your spouse assume goodwill. Yes. Yep. Assume goodwill. It's so good. You have to do that. It's hard though. That is a hard one to do sometimes when you feel like you've got history to back you up.
Yes. That, that, that's exactly right. So, um, own your piece of the pie. Okay. The number three is, . Um, good. A good fight. You're gonna steer clear of belittling. Hmm. Um, what an, what an attitude of respect does is it builds a bridge of trust between a husband and a wife. And it's the exact opposite of contempt.
Hmm. Contempt elevates me over my spouse. Respect elevates my spouse over me. And which one do you think the Bible agrees with? Yeah. . Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I mean, it's all about respect. And what respect does though is it's the breeding ground of forgiveness. So, yeah. Okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna elevate Tori over me, but Tori really did say something.
Mm-hmm. that hurt. Right. But I'm way more likely to forgive her if I'm respecting her. Yeah. Even if she didn't act respectful. I feel like I should turn that analogy around because I don't know that I've ever not respected you cuz you said something stupid, but I know for dog on Sure. I've said something stupid and you have had to Oh, I'm sure.
Fight to respect me. I'm sure I've said things that are not been respectable. Can I mention. Go ahead. Okay. name five. name five. All right. So that's, so that's cooperation, ownership, respect. And then the last is empathy. Hmm. Good fighters step into each other's shoes. Okay. So, and listen to the stat, 90% of the marital spats that people have can be resolved if, if the couple only does one thing.
Hmm. And that's to be empathetic if they can see the issue from their spouse's perspective. Yeah. 90% of fights stop. That's how good empathy is. This is something that I think you had to work really, really hard at in our re in our marriage. Yeah. Because I think for men and, and you and even for our boys, um, tend to think more logically.
Yeah. And so you want to bring the logical explanation to everything. Yeah. And you have done such a good job of turning that around in the last, I don't know, probably the. 10 years, I would say. Yeah. When you learn this, um, it's just been night and day difference and it, it really does draw us close. Like there, there are so many years where anytime I would say something, it's like, you wanted so badly to fix it and to be like, yeah, but you're not seeing this, this, and this.
You're, you're, you missed this whole point. And I'm like, I feel this. Yeah. See, but that was the key, what you just said, those two words. And, and so we probably have women, a lot more women listening to this podcast than men, but women, if you want to get your husband in your corner, don't talk about the thing that happened.
Talk about how you feel about the thing that happened. Mm. Don't talk about what he said. Talk about how you feel about what he said. Yeah. He jumps into your corner. Right. At least he should. If he's thinking healthily mm-hmm. healthy mm-hmm. , then he will jump into your corner. So when Tori started using that language of, but I feel mm-hmm.
but I feel, and then I, I had been taught, you know, how to, hey talk, you know, go, go on the feeling side. And so even if I didn't quite understand, you know, like I, I've used this example before. I got it from a, another marriage psychologist and, and he. . You know, if, if I as a husband come out and I'm wearing an orange sweatshirt and Tori goes, Ooh.
That man, that, that, that sweatshirt makes me feel nauseous. , I could easily go on the side of logic and say, well, you know, actually orange is a color of action. Right? A lot of buttons that are caused to actions on the internet are orange and they're yellow, and so you really shouldn't be like, I can do that.
Yeah, I do that logic. Or I can go, you know what, if I felt nauseous for something, then I would want that thing to get away from me as far as possible. Mm-hmm. , right? Because now I'm saying if I felt what you feel right. Then I would do something about what's making me feel that way. Right? The minute I do that, now all of a sudden I become a husband.
That's empathetic. Yeah. And when you show empathy, I feel respected. . Yeah. Because it's like, okay, you, when you don't show empathy, I begin to question who I am. Almost like, yeah. When you're, when, when somebody's like telling you how to feel or how to be, that speaks to your identity. Yeah. As if you're jacked up.
You don't, you are a whack job. , that's what, that's what it feels like sometimes when em empathy is not shown. It's. Well, maybe there's something wrong with me because they're coming against how I feel and they're not acknowledging, and so maybe something's wrong with me and I don't feel respected. But when you're like, come alongside and you're like, I could see why you would feel that that way, and that's an, that's gotta be an awful feeling.
Yeah. I would hate to feel that. And at that moment, the person who is being empathetic says, oh, that's awful. I would hate to feel that. Then stop there. Mm-hmm. . Okay, stop. And don't immediately go. and then go into your piece. Okay. But if you just stop feeling that way, Yeah. Just stop right there. Um, with that and then just stay there for a few minutes.
Mm-hmm. , then you can continue on and say, okay, so but here's what I was thinking. Yeah. But if you really let them know that you're feeling it, that's where empathy comes in. So let, let's do quick review cuz we're done. Uh, the four horsemen of. Criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling. Let me say this cuz it's worth saying that women tend to jump to criticism quicker than men.
Mm-hmm. . But men tend to jump to stonewalling quicker than women. . Yeah. Yep. And so it, it starts with that criticism don't go after their identity. Mm-hmm. , assume goodwill. Don't think contemptuous, don't place yourself above them and belittle in your mind, or definitely not with your mouth. And then defensiveness don't back into a corner if, if you are the elevate relationship over being.
Right. Yep. And if you are the person who's been. Then use, I feel statements that'll keep your spouse from being in the defensive position. Mm-hmm. . But if you get defensive, then you're in danger of one day. Stonewalling if you're there too long. And how do you overcome this with cooperation? Think, win-win.
Yep. Ownership like take responsibility. Yeah. Respect. Elevate them above you. And empathy. Walk in their shoes. Yeah. You do this and good things. It's so good. That's good. I just love talking with you guys about research. Yeah. I feel like we almost need to like rehash all that like every other month . Yeah.
Because it's just so good and it's so helpful and it's research backed. Yeah. So this isn't me and Tori in our opinions. This is stuff that's the most important thing that any marriage at any time can, can go through. So, yeah, so helpful. . Okay. Favorite recipe of the week? Um, so last week we had some good friends in town and got together with David and Lori and our friends from Florida, and Lori made Jennifer Anderson's salad and it is the best salad.
Uh, it's more of a girly salad. Jason does not like it very much, but it just hit the spot. And then I, I had to make it again this week because it was just so good. It's so fresh and it's about 80 degrees out today. Yeah, so it's like the perfect summer salad. Um, I know we're not in summer yet, but we're getting to spring and with this warmer weather, it's just such fresh flavors.
I absolutely love. So it's called the Jennifer Aniston Salad. And um, apparently this thing that's on like TikTok, it's everywhere. Like it's what she wants in her green room and it's, yeah, her trailer and all that stuff. It's what she ate for like all her, her years at, um, on the set of friends. And so anyways, um, I made it a while ago and I hadn't had it in a while, and then when Lori made it, I was like, oh my gosh, this is the best salad.
It is so good. Um, so, um, you guys look it up. You can literally see it being made. I mean, it's like on TikTok, it's everywhere, so I won't even, I won't even do a reel for it cuz there's a gazillion reels out there on how she makes it. But, um, if you wanna try a yummy girly salad, all you ladies out there, I mean, some men might like it, you just don't like, it's more of a Mediterranean.
Um, and it's just cucumber and red onion. That's the part Jason doesn't love. Uh, fresh mint. That fresh mint is so good. I think that's my favorite part. And then fresh parsley, uh, pistachios. Shell shelled pistachios, um, feta cheese. And then quinoa, and then you, you just squeeze the, the salad dressing is just lemon juice, olive oil, salt and pepper.
It's so simple, but it is the best. And I gave some to my mom. She's like, this is the best salad ever. So anyways, I think you girls will really enjoy it. You girls will like it, but for me, I just, I don't know. For some reason it just taste. You don't like Mediterranean flavors as much as I do? No, I'm not sure.
Yeah. I mean there's like maybe one bowl at Kava. Yeah. That I can. Then I could eat kava every day. So I'd rather eat Chipotle , gimme something creamy. So, but this is great. Hey, thank you guys for hanging out with us. Yes. He's the four horsemen. Counteract with the four keys and it'll help you fight. So it's the four Say it again?
It's the four horsemens of the apocalypse. Yeah. Well it's the four horsemen of conflict. Yeah. If, if, if this has happened and it breaks down your marriage. So, but it's the four horsemen of the apocalypse, which is the end of time. The end, yeah. So it's like the end, what ends a marriage? Yeah. Let's not let that happen.
How about that? Yeah, let's not . Thanks for hanging out with us. Listen, Tory and I, we have, uh, we have gotten so many couples sign up for our five day marriage challenge. So go, go do it. Go on beauty in battle.com or jason and tory.com, sign up for it. It's free, it's fun. And um, it, it's, it's really cool. We got a lot of couples that are doing it, so come hang out with us.
Yes. All right. See you guys. See you next week. Bye-Bye. Bye.